They have forsaken the Lord (Part 2)

DM (Catholic):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hunt.  While Hunt is voluble and persistent he doesn’t seem to be a serious scholar.

His position on abortion is substantially correct.  Look at the Canaanites that sacrificed to Moloch: they imagined they were gaining some good for the community (better crops, victory in battle).  What is the purpose of abortion?  To further our own convenience and pleasure.

I support his stance on sexual morality too.  This is the key phrase: “They seek not children but pleasure, to the exclusion of all else.” He’s talking about homosexuals but the words apply to the culture at large.  Pleasure is the new god; causing pain is bad; speech that is “hurtful” is punished to the full extent of the press, regardless of its truthfulness.

His version of religious and Catholic history is obviously wrong.  For anyone who’s actually curious about the real doctrine of indulgences, here is a good article: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm.  A corresponding article on relics is here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm.  It is true that indulgences and relics have been the subject of abuses.  The people in the Church, like every person, are sinners!  But the behavior of individuals does not affect the truth of doctrine.

His analysis of the fruits of the Reformation is incomplete.  Much more has gone into the current state of affairs than the rift in the Church – the names Descartes, Freud, Darwin, etc. should spring to your mind. Check out the book “Architects of the Culture of Death”: http://www.amazon.com/Architects-Culture-Death-Donald-Marco/dp/1586170163.

Robert, he is writing about Islamic culture and the Sharia (spelling?) law; not about individual Muslims.  It is an established historical fact that Islamic law follows Muslim immigration and conquest.  How many Christian churches are there is Saudi Arabia?  You can count them on the fingers of no hands – there are none.  (Search for “Christian churches in Saudi Arabia”… They even block Christian web sites).  If I went to preach the Gospel of Our Lord in Riyadh I’d be thrown in jail and probably executed.  It is legal for a Muslim religious leader to issue a death warrant against an individual, and there is no shortage of individuals willing to carry out the sentence.  If the Washington Post were to print cartoons of the Prophet, its headquarters would be burned and its publishers assassinated.  When Muslim bombers kill hundreds or thousands of innocent people, Muslims come out into the streets to cheer, and young Muslims grow up wanting to imitate the bombers.

These are all facts.  I have nothing against Muslims who are living peaceful lives and have no desire to kill me for professing the truth of Christianity, and I don’t want to kill any Muslims.  But I’d rather live in the United States than in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.  Life will be much shorter and less pleasant for me, as a faithful Catholic, when Islamic law is declared in this country.

The point he is trying clumsily to make about multiculturalism is that people no longer believe that truth is real; they don’t believe that there is an objective truth beyond the bounds of their subjective experiences and pleasures.  The Catholic Faith’s claim to objective truth is what people react against so intensely.  Clearly Islam makes even stronger claims to absolute truth.  Islam is fashionable in certain liberal circles only because they think anything opposed to the Christian faith must be good.

Robert (Muslim):
Peace and blessings be unto you DM,
I would  love to know where you get your ideas about Islam from?
What is “Islamic Culture”?  I’m curious to know, since as a Muslim myself, I’m not sure what that implies…
As far as “Muslim Conquest” find me one society, culture, country, who didn’t conquer another and had their law as supreme?  However, the neat little caveat, people tend to miss in Islamic history is that religious communities, namely Jews and Christians were not subject to Shariah, but were able to abide by their laws, they payed the jizah tax and Muslims payed zakat.  Furthermore, if Shariah was an imposed system that the conquered had to live under, how do you explain the millions of Muslim nations that were never conquered but accepted Islam freely from exposure from trade, reading, etc?  like the majority Muslim ethnic groups in Asia?  Lastly, Shariah is the name of legal code, not an actual set of laws.  So it varies from govt to govt.

As far as churches in Saudi Arabia?  What is that supposed to prove?  Why build one there anyway?  Take that up with the Saudi’s, has nothing to do with Islam, if it did, there wouldn’t be churches in any Muslim majority nation.  Surely you know about the 133,000 Christians in places like Tehran, there’s even a Catholic mission there, the Vatican recently sent their delegation there last year to check on the congregation…but I digress….

Who is a Muslim “religious leader”?  You do know that there is no formal structure that says who can and cannot be a “leader” right?  I have just as much authority as any fool who stands up and issues death threats.  So I don’t see how your point is valid.  Surely you jest in your commentary about extremists and such as if they represent over a billion Muslims.  Even if we said that the whole Middle East was like this, you would find out that they still only represent less than 20% of the entire Muslim population.

BTW, I would much rather live in the nation of my origin (US) too!  Life in Saudi wouldn’t be good for me either and I’m a Muslim!  So there must be something else if Saudi is supposed to be paradise for Muslims and hell for others right?  Furthermore, just so you know this whole no Christian thing in Saudi is a new invention.  The Prophet (saw) welcomed Christians and Jews in both Mecca and Medina, and on several occasions let the Christian delegation use his Mosque for their prayer services.  As Muslims we are commanded to follow his example….but the Saudi’s….well I can write another 8 pages on them, just a little inside knowledge:  Most Muslims deplore the Saudi’s just so you know…

As far as Islam making “stronger” claims to absolute truth, I would love to see how that is.  Islam says that any who believes in the God of Abraham (saw) and the last day will go to paradise.  Most Christians say if you don’t believe as they do you go to hell, and Jews believe the righteous will be rewarded regardless.  I have yet to hear any Christian doctrine that doesn’t claim to be the only way.  In the second Surah of the Quran we are told that Jews and Christians will go to heaven too regardless of whether or not they are Muslim.  I can’t recall the last time I saw an entire cable channel dedicated to Muslim evangelism, or Muslims knocking on doors, riding bikes, handing out flyers etc. to show that we have ultimate truth.

no disrespect intended, but I’m reminded of a scripture about beams and eyes…

James:
Robert, I think DM’s point is that you seem to be in the minority in terms of your view of true Islam. Obviously, if most Muslims thought like you, the presumption is that Islam would truly be thought of as a religion of peace and not violence. I think an important thing to discuss is whether the terrorist are justified in the Quran or condemned. In Northern Nigeria (which is majority Muslim), most Muslim apostates are severely persecuted and or killed. My father-in laws house was burned to the ground and his family was forced to flee to the Christian west due to the dictates of the Muslim majority there. Are the Muslims over there justified in their actions? My aunt-in law was a Muslim apostate turned Christian but she was able to survive because she lived in the west among the Christian majority. Most would agree these accounts are not merely anecdotal. Why do you think this is?

Now I’m not a Muslim scholar so bare with me, (and I know you warned me about Surah 9 before) but I’d be interested in your interpretation of the following verse(s) that correspond with Dave Hunt’s article :

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger [i.e., uphold sharia], nor embrace the true faith, [even if they are] from among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute with willing submission, and feel themselves utterly subdued” (Surah 9:29)

“I have been commanded [by Allah] to fight against mankind until they testify that none but Allah is to be worshipped and that Muhammad is Allah’s Messenger” (Bukhari B2N24)

“Infidels are those who say Allah is one of three… [i.e., the Christian Trinity; ]” (5:73).

“Infidels are those who say Allah is the Christ [Jesus], son of Mary” (5:17).

DM, Well I hope you didn’t make up your mind concerning Dave Hunt based on a Wikipedia entry. That would most certainly be a hasty generalization. Keep in mind, I don’t necessarily agree with Dave Hunt especially in his complete condemnation of Calvinism as a falsehood. You assert that “His version of religious and Catholic history is obviously wrong” yet you yourself  admit to the abuses of indulgences and relics. Just out of curiosity, what specifically is wrong concerning what he wrote?

DM (Catholic):
The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with
you all!  I didn’t have time to respond yesterday, so I’ll send a short
message now, I hope to send a more detailed one later.

James asked the right question.  It is my understanding that conversion
of unbelievers by force, destruction of unbelievers if they refuse to
convert, and armed defense and propagation of the Islamic faith are all
justifiable under Islamic faith and law, and that reasonable, faithful,
and orthodox Muslims are justified in acting on these tenets of faith.
I also understand that the peace of Islam is understood to be the peace
that will reign in the world after all people submit to the Islamic
faith, and there are no more unbelievers.

If I am wrong I would be very interested to read official pronouncements
by the heads of the various Muslim communities to the contrary.  I meant
to find documentary evidence to support my statements above but I don’t
have time now – maybe tonight.

As for the Reformation, indulgences, and saint’s relics:  the Catholic
church did not grind anyone under their heels; the Reformation was not a
liberation of the people; and Dave Hunt seemed to be opposed to the
doctrines themselves, not merely the abuses of the doctrines.

As for Saudi Arabia and religious freedom, the United States just
released an updated list of those countries deemed to be suffering under
prodigious abuses of religious freedoms.  I would bet that virtually all
of these countries are either Communist or dominant Muslim.  Tonight I
hope to find the list and confirm my suspicions.

Robert (Muslim):
Fair enough:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

http://www.cair-net.org/html/911statements.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://www.islamworld.net/terror.html

http://saudinf.com/main/y7828.htm

http://www.usembassyjakarta.org/lawmaker.html

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

On and On and On and On…I don’t know what to tell you guys, believe what you will, but in conjunction with my statements, fellow Muslims, and now this exhaustive list of links to official pronouncements, declarations, fatwa’s, condemnations, from scholars, mufti’s, Imams, etc. across the globe, if after this you still want to say Islam promotes, teaches, etc. violence then that’s just your belief.  As a Muslim, I respectfully disagree.

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They have forsaken the Lord (Part 1)

Hi Friends (one muslim, three protestants and one catholic),

Just thought you guys might find the following article interesting. Any thoughts?

Robert, I’m assuming you will disagree with some of this articles content. How would you constructively critique the following article?

The Berean Call

“They Have Forsaken the LORD”

Dave Hunt

Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

– Isaiah 1:4-7

Most of us fail to grasp the depths of depravity into which the United States-and the world–are rapidly sinking, provoking a merciful and patient God to judgment. The evidence is overwhelming. Yet we’re blinded to the truth like the proverbial frog in the pot that is slowly, by small degrees, being brought to a boil. Deceit is everywhere, and lies pass for truth. The major promoter of abortion calls itself Planned Parenthood. By what perverted logic can a husband and wife who deliberately murdered in the womb what would have been their baby be called its “parents”? Shouldn’t the organization that inspired and assisted in this foul deed rather be called “Planned No Parenthood”?

Murder in the womb is cloaked under the innocuous label of “Pro-choice”

while at the same time denying any choice to the victim. The “Campaign for Healthy Families” was the group that defeated a proposed ban on abortions in South Dakota . To what “healthy family” do aborted babies belong? In 2006, the National Abortion Federation complained that the Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act would “impose…burdens on teens seeking abortion” by requiring minors to get parental notification to cross state lines in order to get one!1 And how do teens get into this predicament? By the immorality held up in a wicked society as a desirable sign of “maturity.” To brainwash teenagers with the lie that they can get away with anything that is their choice is evil. God no longer is allowed to have any opinion in the world He made! Our choice overrides His. America has “forsaken the Lord” and is sowing the seeds of its destruction. God cannot withhold His judgment without becoming a partner in our sins.

Between 1960 and 1990, out-of-wedlock births in the USA increased more than 500 percent (from 5.3 percent to 28 percent), single-parent families tripled, about 50 million babies were murdered in the womb, and violent crimes increased 500 percent. About 16,000 crimes occur on or around school campuses each day! In 2005, 37 percent of births were to unwed mothers, up from 36 percent in 2004 and 28 percent in 1990. The report stated that “The overall rise reflects the burgeoning number of people who are putting off marriage or are living together without getting married.” Are these the “Healthy Families” that the amoral campaign of that name is building by supporting abortion?

Homosexuals not only flaunt their sin in public, they are fêted, wooed, indulged, and thanked by politicians for their votes. It’s Sodom and Gomorrah again–or worse! In January 2007, Christian Vanneste, an MP in France ‘s ruling party was fined nearly $4,000 for saying that homosexuality is “inferior to heterosexuality” and would be “dangerous for humanity if it was pushed to the limit.” Of course, these are the facts. But daring to express the undeniable truth unleashes the wrath of police and courts in their zeal to protect the feelings of a favored class that complains of being offended.

Homosexuals and lesbians don’t procreate as God commanded mankind to do.

The Creator’s very first commandment to Adam and Eve was, “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth…” (Gn 1:28). “Gays” defy God’s very first words to mankind. They seek not children but pleasure, to the exclusion of all else. And in their self-absorbed folly, they taunt us with “gay pride.” Are they proud that their lifestyle is not only “dangerous” (it shortens the lifespan by 24 years2) but that it would abruptly end the human race if universally adopted? What madness supports this celebrated perversion?

Vanneste is appealing his case to the European Court of Human Rights, a likely exercise in futility. Truth used to be a sure defense in a lawsuit. Today truth is irrelevant: the issue is whether a “protected minority” or a special interest group feels offended. Vladimir Bukovsky, a former Soviet dissident, warned that “the EU’s enforcement of political correctness was a symbol of the Union ‘s slide toward a similar [Soviet-like] oppressive regime.”

On October 10, 2004, in Philadelphia , eleven evangelical Christians were arrested and jailed for peacefully witnessing for Christ at a “gay parade”-four of them for quoting Bible verses while walking a public sidewalk. In Germany , a priest faces jail for publicly criticizing abortionists, and in Holland , ‘fornicators’ and ‘adulterers’ are protected classes and cannot be criticized.”3 On October 6, 2006, LifeSiteNews reported, “The gloves have come off; the Parliamentary debate in Canada has moved beyond homosexual ‘marriage’ and on to refusing freedoms for those with religious beliefs opposed to homosexuality and those with conscientious reasons for opposing it.”4 Hundreds of other examples of “political correctness”

gone berserk in defense of immorality throughout the Western world could be cited, space permitting.

What is happening today reflects a long history. Visiting Holland, Germany, France, and England, countries where the Protestant Reformation challenged Roman Catholicism, which had held the entire Western world in its iron grip for centuries, is inspiring but at the same time disheartening. It is thrilling to visit the Wittenberg Castle Church , where the Reformation began. It held one of Europe ‘s largest collections of religious relics-some 19,000 accumulated by Frederick III. Pilgrims viewing all of them would receive indulgences that would allegedly shorten their time in purgatory by 5,209 years5-the largest reduction obtainable in one place outside of Rome .

Of course, these poor souls never suspected that on January 1, 1967, over the signature of Pope Paul VI, their infallible Church would issue its “Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences,” admitting centuries of false promises, undoing the reduction of the purgatorial sufferings deceased Catholics thought they had purchased, and making new requirements they couldn’t possibly fulfill, having been dead and presumably still in purgatory after 400 years of torment in its flames.6 This was the madness that ruled the Middle Ages. There were tiny vials of “true milk from the Virgin Mary’s breasts,” pickled fingers and toes of this or that “saint,” and enough pieces of wood in Europe venerated as parts of the “true cross” to build a cathedral. Even toenails of “saints” were worshiped by the deluded devout. Peter’s toes were uncommonly prolific. There were enough “certified trimmings” in Europe ‘s cathedrals to fill a gunnysack. The biggest scam was selling “indulgences” to release deceased relatives from purgatory-and who would refuse to buy Aunt Maria’s release from the flames! From such blood money, St. Peter’s Basilica was repaired and expanded to its present form.

No matter how well one knows the story, it is always an emotional experience to stand at the Wittenberg door. There, on October 31, 1517, Martin Luther nailed his Disputation of the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences, known as the 95 Theses. By 1518, copies in other languages had been read throughout Europe , arousing rage against the Roman Catholic Church. Luther’s brave challenge at the risk of his life shook the church and world of his day. Oh, that it would happen again-not just to Catholicism (which hasn’t changed), but to Protestantism as well!

Visiting those areas of Europe and remembering the impact of Luther’s simple paper is deeply moving-but at the same time discouraging.

Everywhere, one sees the ruins that the Reformation has left in its

wake: apostate state churches scarcely attended, mostly dead and a reproach to Christ instead of the centers for proclaiming the gospel they once were. “Christian” Europe has assuredly forsaken the Lord and is beginning to reap in earnest the fruit of the rebellion it has been sowing for a long, long time.

The liberalism of England ‘s universities, media, and courts undermined any sense of God-given morality that had barely survived from the days of Luther and Calvin. “Multiculturalism” is the new faith-a multiculturism that embraces every religion and creed. There is, however, one exception: the culture of the host country, England . Why?

Because it is Western and has a Christian heritage. That, above all, is not acceptable. Islam most assuredly is in, and Christianity is out.

In fact, it was the rejection of Christianity that opened Britain to the amoral liberalism prevalent in its courts, media, and universities that now favors Muhammad over Christ and is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

The most disheartening-even frightening-experience each time one returns to Britain and Europe is to see firsthand the evidence of the “new reformation” sweeping those countries and the world today. A fresh Islamic invasion (already far more effective than the military invasion that was turned back at Poitier-Tours in 732 and Vienna in the 18th

century) is changing the face of England , France , Holland , Germany , and the other countries that supported the first Reformation. The new privileged “minority” are the Muslim immigrants, many of whom have come in obedience to Muhammad’s command (which all Muslims everywhere are obligated to obey in the name of Allah and Islam) to take over the entire world by violence, if necessary. They mostly refuse to be integrated into the societies they invade, retaining their own customs and language, while demanding “rights” (including welfare support of multiple wives) from the country they intend to destroy. The protection of the West’s liberal laws assists terrorists in the commanded takeover. Imam Abu Baseer, a leading religious supporter of al-Qaeda, confessed:

One of the goals of immigration is the revival of the duty of jihad and enforcement of their power over the infidels. Immigration and jihad go

together.7

Christianity and Christ may be mocked in the West, but no word must be whispered (for fear of violent reprisals) against Islam. One city in England is already 75 percent Muslim and has a Muslim mayor. Non-Muslims move out, property values plummet, allowing more Muslims to move in at bargain prices. Islamists boast that they will eventually have a string of Muslims-only cities in a crescent shape stretching across the heartland of England . They insist that this “crescent” will be ruled by sharia (Islamic law), as in Saudi Arabia , where women are publically stoned to death (if the family doesn’t kill them first) for “allowing”

themselves to be raped; no non-Muslim place of worship may be built; those who convert from Islam to any other religion are beheaded; and Islamic law rules an Islamic state. This is Islam’s intent for the entire world.

The cost of opposing Islam or Muhammad far exceeds the judgments decreed by liberal courts against anti-abortionists or anti-gays-a cost that has already mounted into thousands of lives and billions of dollars. We’ve seen it in murder, mayhem, and destruction through riots in Paris, trains blown up in Madrid, subways and buses exploding in London, planes flown into the Twin Towers in New York, and Shiites and Sunnis slaughtering one another with a ferocity and cruelty that proclaims to the world-if the world were not afraid to listen-that Islam is not a religion of peace. Yet, in spite of such overwhelming evidence, the same old political correctness insists that all of this horror is in the cause of “peace” because Islam is peace-and woe to anyone who dares to correct that lie!

Incredibly, after 9/11 and again after the London bombings of 2005, government instructions were for police “to avoid doing anything to alienate Britain ‘s Muslims.” As a practical matter, “this meant the police had to deny the nature of Islamist terrorism altogether.”8 “This was why, on the day that four Islamist suicide bombers blew themselves and more than fifty London commuters to bits, the Met’s deputy assistant commissioner, Brian Paddick, stood before the television cameras and made the noteworthy comment: ‘As far as I am concerned, Islam and terrorists are two words that do not go

together.'”9 Such whitewashing of Islam by high officials has become the scandal of the century. As Melanie Phillips, author of Londonistan, so perceptively points out:

Britain is in Denial. Having allowed the country to turn into a global hub of the Islamic jihad…the British establishment is still failing…to acknowledge what it is actually facing and take the appropriate action. Instead, it is deep into a policy of appeasement of the phenomenon that threatens it…in a panic-stricken attempt to curry favor and buy off the chances of any further attacks….10 Though they knew that London had become a headquarters for Islamic terrorism worldwide, the British police “even after 9/11…still took no action against Islamist extremists embedded in London….” The willful blindness to indisputable facts was incredible.

“Over the years, the governments of India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, France, Algeria, Peru, Yemen, and Russia, among others, lodged…protests about the presence in Britain of terrorist organizations or their sympathizers….Egypt denounced Britain as a hotbed for radicals….11 The reason for this insanity was in the multiculturism (every culture and religion is equally good-except for Christianity, which must be jettisoned because of its narrow-minded claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to God). In a word, British society has lost its moral foundation, as Phillips explains:

The underlying message in the classroom is that there is no historical truth at all, and whatever had happened in the past [including the crucifixion of Christ for our sins and His resurrection] was only a matter of opinion….At the heart of this unpicking of national identity lies a repudiation of Christianity, the founding faith of the nation and the fundamental source of its values, including its…profound love of liberty….For the secular elite, Britain is now a “post-Christian society; and insofar as this is not yet the case, this elite is determined to make it so. Under the rubric of multiculturalism and promoting “diversity,” local authorities and government bodies are systematically bullying Christianity out of existence….12 Whether in the world or the church, we see much the same thing happening in America . Anything is acceptable-except biblical Christianity. Public schools accommodate witches, homosexuals, and Muslims promoting their beliefs and practices. But Christianity, in the name of freedom, is outlawed. Let us not give up the fight for biblical truth, earnestly contending for the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. TBC

Endnotes

1. http://www.prochoice.org/policy/policyreports/legislative_2006.html.

2. http://www.earnedmedia.org/frereport.htm.

3. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54260.

4. http://ca.altermedia.info/news/general/page/2/.

5. Martin Treu, Martin Luther in Wittenberg : A Biographical Tour ( Wittenberg :Saxon-Anhal to Luther Memorial Foundation, 2003), 15.

6. Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, General Editor Austin Flannery, O.P. (Northport, NY: Costello Publishing Company, 1988, Revised Edition), Volume I, 62-79.

7. Stephen Ulph, “Londonistan,” Terrorism Monitor, ( Jamestown Center ), vol. 2, no. 4 (26 Feb 2004).

8. Melanie Phillips, Londonistan ( New York : Encounter Books, 2006), 33.

9. Mansoor Ijaz, Financial Times, July 11, 2005.

10. Phillips, Londonistan, 182-84.

11. Ibid., 36-41.

12. Ibid., 64-69.

Robert:Well, well, well, a mouth full.  Let me start out with Peace and Blessings of God (of Abraham (saw) ) be upon you and yours.   My name is Robert Salaam and I’m James’ [friend] and I am pleased to indulge you with my “Muslim” point of view.   Lastly, James, I will see you when I get home 🙂   OK, I read the entire article, true to form I agreed with all of it until I got to the “Muslim” part….However, I would like to add that on the issue of abortion, homosexuality, etc. I believe people should have the right to choose the hellfire if they see fit.  I do not believe it’s up to the believers in God to make anyone choose anything.  Now I’m going to try as best to respond to the “Muslim” sections, I pray God’s guidance that my words are correct:

Because it is Western and has a Christian heritage. That, above all, is not acceptable. Islam most assuredly is in, and Christianity is out.

Robert:I don’t believe in the whole “Christian heritage” argument.  For two reasons:    A: There wouldn’t be a West had it not been for the advances of the East.  In fact, it was Muslims that pioneered the fields of Mathematics, Medicine, and Science, when “Christian” Europe was alienating people practicing such as heritics, people were flocking to Muslim Spain and learning Arabic which then was the “language of learning” and took that back to Europe which consequently was one of the things that brought Europe out of the Dark Ages.   B: Referring to the West in general as Christian anything is more of an insult than anything to be proud of.  Having been raised in the Church and loving Christ and what he stood for, I find it a little “crazy” to even refer to the West in his name.  Even the article highlighted how the West at times makes the people of Sodom and their actions look like childs play!

In fact, it was the rejection of Christianity that opened Britain to the amoral liberalism prevalent in its courts, media, and universities that now favors Muhammad over Christ and is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

Robert:I would argue that Britain never accepted Christianity in the first place, but that’s for another day, however I take issue with this “Muhammad vs Jesus” comment as if Muslims worship Muhammad (saw) or Jesus (saw) for that matter, and favor one over the other, which we do not.  I think it’s the ignorance of the author and those that believe as he does that prevail in that statement, because I don’t get the point?  Is he suggesting that their should be no justice for those who say we are Muslim?  Does prevailence of favorable rulings towards Muslims automatically equal injustice against Christians?  Or Christ for that matter?

The most disheartening- even frightening-experience each time one returns to Britain and Europe is to see firsthand the evidence of the “new reformation” sweeping those countries and the world today. A fresh Islamic invasion (already far more effective than the military invasion that was turned back at Poitier-Tours in 732 and Vienna in the 18th century) is changing the face of England, France, Holland, Germany, and the other countries that supported the first Reformation. The new privileged “minority” are the Muslim immigrants,

Robert:I guess it’s safe to say that the author doesn’t like the fact that Muslims are immigrating into Europe, when it wasn’t Muslims it was the Africans who were destroying Europe…..

many of whom have come in obedience to Muhammad’s command (which all Muslims everywhere are obligated to obey in the name of Allah and Islam) to take over the entire world by violence, if necessary.

Robert:Now that’s a big lie with a capital L for Lucifer!  The Quran doesn’t advocate taking over the world, that’s one of those old Orientalist lies, nor did Muhammad (saw).  Nor do either advocate violence, no more so than Judaism or Christianity.  In fact the Quran says:   2:256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.   2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians  -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.   2:177 True piety does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or the west  – but truly pious is he who believes in God, and the Last Day; and the angels, and revelation,  and the prophets; and spends his substance – however much he himself may cherish – it – upon his near of kin, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer,  and the beggars, and for the freeing of human beings from bondage;  and is constant in prayer, and renders the purifying dues; and [truly pious are] they who keep their promises whenever they promise, and are patient in misfortune and hardship and in time of peril: it is they that have proved themselves true, and it is they, they who are conscious of God.   5:45 We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.   17:33 And do not take any human being’s life -[the life] which God has willed to be, sacred-otherwise than in [the pursuit of] justice.  Hence, if anyone has been slain wrongfully, We have empowered the defender of his rights [to exact a just retribution] ;  but even so, let him not exceed the bounds of equity in [retributive] killing.  [And as for him who has been slain wrongfully -] behold, he is indeed succoured [by God]

2:190 AND FIGHT in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away – for oppression is even worse than killing.  And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first;  but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.
2:192 But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
2:193 Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone;  but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong.

Robert:Now why all the “Quran”?  To prove various points from the Muslim text.   2:256, outlines the fact that Muslims are comanded to not attempt at compelling others to accept Islam and in truth says that no one, Muslim or not should attempt at compulsion in matters of faith.  My point: The author lied by saying Muslims are directed to take over the world.  For what purpose would we? Even if we did, if we weren’t allowed to compel people to believe, they would still probably be non-Muslims….   2:62, I quoted this because it shows that Muslims believe that others beside us are going to heaven anyway, so it reinforces my last point.   2:177, I pointed this out to prove that Muslims don’t believe that our rituals and beliefs are the only way, but that true piety that God is most concerned with resides in the heart, not whether or not one prays toward Mecca or not…   5:45 and 17:33, is used to display that Muslims are not compelled to violence and are not blood thirsty thugs that just want to kill.  We are given guidance in these verses to show that life is sacred and a decree given by God to take a life is a serious and sinful thing, only when it is just (and that’s a broad definition) is it ever remotely ok.  My point is, we are not just commanded to kill non-Muslims just because they are such.   2:190-2:193, are the verses that plainly lay out when and if fighting is ever OK.  Notice it says nothing about taking over non-Muslim lands, or killing non-Muslims for the sake thereof.  It simply says that fighting is only OK in self-defense, but more importantly when your being oppressed and not allowed to worship God, then and only then can you fight, and even still, if the persecutor or enemy stops, then so should you.  Also note, it says that God does not like the aggressor or the one on offense.  Peace is obviously held higher than war…   So all this stuff about Muslims being commanded to take over is just false.

They mostly refuse to be integrated into the societies they invade, retaining their own customs and language, while demanding “rights” (including welfare support of multiple wives) from the country they intend to destroy. The protection of the West’s liberal laws assists terrorists in the commanded takeover. Imam Abu Baseer, a leading religious supporter of al-Qaeda, confessed: One of the goals of immigration is the revival of the duty of jihad and enforcement of their power over the infidels. Immigration and jihad go together.

Robert:Who’s the “they” that’s “invading”?  What is integration?  Better yet integrate into what?  The author himself said that the West has become decadent and full of indecency yet is frustrated and/or angry because immigrant Muslims won’t join in on the “fun”.  Seems like double speak.  Are Muslims to stop speaking Arabic, Urdu, Farsi, etc. just to prove they are “integrated”?  Should that apply to only Muslims or all immigrants?  Now the multiple wife attack…isn’t even worth debating, the majority of Muslim households have on wife, lest men like me get a black eye, the author would be wiser to talk about the pologamist sects of the Mormon religion, who seem to be a far greater problem in the US…but I digress…   Then he says we “intend to destroy” where’s his proof?  In America for instance, less than 1% of criminals are Muslim or consider themselves such, since this country is 74-76% Christian, one can only guess what the other 99% of criminals claim to believe.  The fact is, that most Muslims immigrants come here for the same reasons they came here since the 1800’s: freedom and the pursuit of happiness.  If that wasn’t the case then where was all this death and destruction a hundred years ago in America?  Where is it now?  In fact, the majority of violence committed by Muslims is against other Muslims in so-called Muslim countries, so the facts don’t line up with what he’s trying to spread.   Lastly, who is that Al-Qaeda guy?  Who cares what he says?  Is the author suggesting that now this guy speaks for 1.5 billion plus Muslims?  I can’t even count the Fatwas, statements, councils, decrees, etc. in the Muslim community against Al-Qaeda, yet when someone wants to make a point, they throw the Al-Qaeda card, yet neglect the fact that many “Muslim” govts are actively fighting against them, and even the Pentagon is bearing witness that the Sunnis in Iraq are fighting them now.  If they were the mouthpiece, surely this wouldn’t be the facts, would it?

Christianity and Christ may be mocked in the West, but no word must be whispered (for fear of violent reprisals) against Islam. One city in England is already 75 percent Muslim and has a Muslim mayor. Non-Muslims move out, property values plummet, allowing more Muslims to move in at bargain prices. Islamists boast that they will eventually have a string of Muslims-only cities in a crescent shape stretching across the heartland of England. They insist that this “crescent” will be ruled by sharia (Islamic law), as in Saudi Arabia, where women are publically stoned to death (if the family doesn’t kill them first) for “allowing” themselves to be raped; no non-Muslim place of worship may be built; those who convert from Islam to any other religion are beheaded; and Islamic law rules an Islamic state. This is Islam’s intent for the entire world.

Robert:I think I already tackled this one.  OMG the sky is falling, Muslims are immigrating, OMG Saudi Arabia sucks (we know that too!) Now as far as “mocking” who’s fault is it to allow or to not speak?  Is the author advocating that Islam should be mocked?  I would suggest he rather be concerned with those who mock his faith, seems like a much worthier cause.  Oh by the way, the Da Vinci Code, was banned in many Muslim Countries for disrespecting Jesus (saw) and Christians, imagine that!!!  The Passion by the way, after much deliberation because we believe it’s a sin to have images of the holy Prophets of God, was shown…imagine that!!!

The cost of opposing Islam or Muhammad far exceeds the judgments decreed by liberal courts against anti-abortionists or anti-gays -a cost that has already mounted into thousands of lives and billions of dollars. We’ve seen it in murder, mayhem, and destruction through riots in Paris, trains blown up in Madrid, subways and buses exploding in London, planes flown into the Twin Towers in New York, and Shiites and Sunnis slaughtering one another with a ferocity and cruelty that proclaims to the world -if the world were not afraid to listen -that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Robert:Give me a break!  More Muslims have died in this “mayhem” than anyone else.  Muslims also died in the WTC, there were Muslim NYPD, NYFD, servicemen and women, helping that day, and to this day, I was one of them, so the author can stop right there.  Time Magazine even has an article about my Imam who was given funerals for some of the dead in which he cursed the terrorists, don’t believe me:

As far as the Sunni/Shia, what does that have to do with lives in the West?  We all know the root of the problem(s) by now, and we all know who opened pandoras box!  What the author doesn’t want to acknowledge that many know, especially those of us in the Govt, is that our foreign policy, especially our dependence on oil, has a lot to do with this.   Yet, in spite of such overwhelming evidence, the same old political correctness insists that all of this horror is in the cause of “peace” because Islam is peace -and woe to anyone who dares to correct that lie!     Prove that it isn’t using the sole source that all Muslims agree!  Show me where in the Aqeeda, Tawhid, or 5 pillars, is the word violence, war, or any word similar is used to describe what Islam is about!  Give me 5 minutes and I could prove with just as much credibility that both Judaism and Christianity are violent religions based both on history and texts, but then I would be stooping to the authors level, and I’m above that!

Incredibly, after 9/11 and again after the London bombings of 2005, government instructions were for police “to avoid doing anything to alienate Britain’s Muslims.” Because Britain and even the POTUS President of the United States, both realize that the millions of Muslims in their countries had nothing to do with it, don’t believe it, and it makes more sense to have your citizens with you then against you, by lumping them in a basket they don’t belong! As a practical matter, “this meant the police had to deny the nature of Islamist terrorism altogether.”8 “This was why, on the day that four Islamist suicide bombers blew themselves and more than fifty London commuters to bits, the Met’s deputy assistant commissioner, Brian Paddick, stood before the television cameras and made the noteworthy comment: ‘As far as I am concerned, Islam and terrorists are two words that do not go together.'”9 Such whitewashing of Islam by high officials has become the scandal of the century. As Melanie Phillips, author of Londonistan, so perceptively points out: Britain is in Denial. Having allowed the country to turn into a global hub of the Islamic jihad…the British establishment is still failing…to acknowledge what it is actually facing and take the appropriate action. Instead, it is deep into a policy of appeasement of the phenomenon that threatens it…in a panic-stricken attempt to curry favor and buy off the chances of any further attacks….10 Though they knew that London had become a headquarters for Islamic terrorism worldwide, the British police “even after 9/11…still took no action against Islamist extremists embedded in London….” The willful blindness to indisputable facts was incredible. If Islam and terror go together, then so does Christianity and terror, America and Terror, the UK and terror, all the non-Christians, blacks, and people of color over the world must have felt terrorized and still do today given their records of burning, lynching, nuking, destruction, war, colonization, occupation, etc. etc. etc., one of the primary reasons Africa and the Middle East are the way they are is due to their direct influence spreading “peace”. “Over the years, the governments of India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, France, Algeria, Peru, Yemen, and Russia, among others, lodged…protests about the presence in Britain of terrorist organizations or their sympathizers….Egypt denounced Britain as a hotbed for radicals….11 The reason for this insanity was in the multiculturism (every culture and religion is equally good -except for Christianity, which must be jettisoned because of its narrow-minded claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to God). In a word, British society has lost its moral foundation, as Phillips explains: The underlying message in the classroom is that there is no historical truth at all, and whatever had happened in the past [including the crucifixion of Christ for our sins and His resurrection] was only a matter of opinion….At the heart of this unpicking of national identity lies a repudiation of Christianity, the founding faith of the nation and the fundamental source of its values, including its…profound love of liberty….For the secular elite, Britain is now a “post-Christian society; and insofar as this is not yet the case, this elite is determined to make it so. Under the rubric of multiculturalism and promoting “diversity,” local authorities and government bodies are systematically bullying Christianity out of existence….12 Whether in the world or the church, we see much the same thing happening in America. Anything is acceptable -except biblical Christianity. Public schools accommodate witches, homosexuals, and Muslims promoting their beliefs and practices. But Christianity, in the name of freedom, is outlawed. Let us not give up the fight for biblical truth, earnestly contending for the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. TBC

Robert:It appears to me that the real issue is the lament the author has that his faith is in some sort of decline, so he looks to every scapegoat, mainly freedom, as an excuse.  When the fault lies squarely on the believer.  Truth needs no defense, it stands on it’s own merits.  People will either accept or deny it.  Vegeance is Gods Alone, so if he and those who believe him did what they would supposed to do, then maybe people would lean toward their favor, but the facts are that Christianity as we know it in “western” terms since it’s adoption in the “West” has been the greatest source of oppression, imperialism, and defemation of rights.  Should it be a surprise in this day and age that after centuries of this people are getting tired?  We all know that isn’t what Christianity teaches, but many of these actions occured in the name of it, even into the modern era, that’s one of the main reasons, why many are leaving the pews empty, and the Vatican can barely find priests, yet at the same time Islam is growing at record speeds in the West since 9/11….for many reasons…but so is Atheism, Agnostism, etc.  people are searching for other ways.  Who’s fault is that?   My point is charity begins at home.  Fix the church and maybe this discussion would be null and void.  Like I tell fellow Muslims all the time on my blog and radio show (shameless plug) we need to focus more on ourselves than others.  God helps those who first help themselves, not those who sit back and say woe is me/us and blame others for the condition we choose to live in, for if we are not actively engaged in making things better, we are actively helping it stay the same.